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Why You Don't Need TMs in FFBE Global

Discussion in 'General' started by Jet Stingren, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. FaRFrOmPoOpIn

    FaRFrOmPoOpIn Ascended Member Supporter

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    Still cant beat the little house of horrors but the dragon was easy.
     
  2. ILSATS

    ILSATS Member

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    We may not need TMs now, yes. However, knowing Alim & Gumi after playing Brave Frontier for years, we will surely need TMs in the future. They'll keep pushing out harder contents that require better units, equpiment & skills to clear. At some points, some of them may require you to at least have some TMs. Brave Frontier is famous for its powercreep over the years. Brave Exvius will be no different.
     
  3. Khidir

    Khidir Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if anyone has looked at it this way but I see TMRs as a way to keep playing your favourite units longer.

    Working on genji, x3 sakurafubuki, Excalibur.

    Guess who's my favorite character?

    Edit: also someone was doing tmr VS non tmr comparison

    It's pretty easy to get +400 attack on a character without tmr

    Gilgamesh 456 (ifrit not maxed)

    noctis(393 with Titan)

    Got 4 hero rings to add to them when they're finished
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  4. Ephemeral

    Ephemeral Member

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    Well, you aren't wrong, but this is missing a very different aspect of the game which is "when". When are you going to clear X content? Power creep also makes it so that any F2P player can sooner or later gain access to the same content the whales do and at the same power whales do, but they do it at a significantly slower rate than a whale does. Hence a whale can max TM in a week or so but for a F2P this may take several months, depending.

    So while Attack of the Antenolla is difficult for a F2P without relying on a whale friend right now, it will inevitably become easy in a couple of months with the introduction of new power creep. I did Trial of the White Dragon as a returning player with a Noctis lead during the weekend and I lol'd. I read comments dating back to game release about how this was difficult and it undoubtedly was for a max 4* team and I remember when I was very new to the game with mostly 3* units White Dragon one-shot my team, but when my Noctis solo'd the thing I was like "yeah". That's the nature of power creep for you.

    So any F2P can do what a whale does in this game but they will accomplish it at a much slower rate. So the real difference is that a whale can always stay on top of new content and a F2P quite cannot, though over time, the discrepancy between whale and F2P also diminishes as the F2P gains more and more access to the same content as the whale does because for the sake of making the game sustainable, power creep can never be so powerful as to completely overpower current content and make any other past content obsolete. That's the silliness that you saw towards the end of Dragonball Z where Goku could destroy entire planets and in order to keep scaling up the fights, now they destroy universes or some shit. No wonder someone like Piccolo that operated as one of the very first antagonists in the original Dragonball just seemed like a whisper in the wind in comparison.

    The only way to avoid that is to introduce power discrepancies so slowly that older units will stay relevant for as long as possible while still upping the difficulty of the game and forcing people to invest into becoming stronger. That is of course a difficult balance to strike and I think companies tend to err more on upping content than upping the strength of units as they can always downtune a too powerful encounter but they cannot take back units that are too strong for the content available; with that said, I also think most companies that endorse the gacha system are fairly good at it because there's been a lot of trial and error done on that part already.

    tl;dr smart play of F2P can always do the same thing as a whale can but it just takes more time. That's the nature of power creep. So no, you don't need TMs right now, but because they will also release units with more and better stats along with better abilities that accomplish the same thing as a TM would at a previous point in time. However, TMs along with it, will also scale and become more powerful, but luckily the game isn't at that state yet. I think it's still fairly easy for a new player to get into the game and when that happens Gumi/Alim will just need to take decisive action in order to make it easier to introduce new players to the game e.g. being guaranteed a base 5* roll on their first summon or be given out some welcome pack that helps them to overpower older content and get into the main content much faster etc. Kinda like how you saw JP players in Mobius getting a fixed chance of getting the Maijin class and class-specific cards that help you to blaze through old content so you can be up to date with new content.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  5. ILSATS

    ILSATS Member

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    I think you missed the whole point here. Sure, F2P will still be able to do stuff, but just a lower rate, no argument there. But since when TMs is a P2P-only feature ? And how do you know the powercreep will not require you to have some kind of TMs at some points ? You also assumed that any F2P player might be able to summon some good units in every powercreep phase.
    So yeah, you don't know if we would need TMs or not. However, after years of playing Brave Frontier, it will not be a surprise if in the future, the average players won't be able to clear contents without high-tier units or some TMs.
     
  6. dbr11

    dbr11 Well-Known Member

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    guys, is Celestial Gloves better, or Bracer?
    30/30/30/30 or 30/15% HP?

    i'm about to finish my first Dualcast (5 Luds)...is it worth getting a second? i've read that most mages have innate dualcast in future. don't know how useful it is to have 2, to put on refia & cecil LOL. now i'm wishing i had a single Zidane to farm.
     
  7. Omega911

    Omega911 Well-Known Member

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    I'll take Bracer over Celestial Gloves due to 15% HP :) more HP = better survival
     
  8. Ephemeral

    Ephemeral Member

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    Actually, I didn't assume anything. I understand what you are saying in relation to the OP, but that wasn't what I was trying to express.

    I never suggested such; in fact, I suggested otherwise.

    Again, I actually argued otherwise. Because of the nature of power creep, it will be inevitable to use weaker TMs because those TMs will kind of "make up" for the fact that newer power creep will have better base stats and growth compared to older units. Similarly, new content will be tuned towards newly released units and the addition of new TMs that undoubtedly will be extremely powerful on their own, which will create an even greater power discrepancy. It will therefore be a necessity to use TMs in order to keep up.

    No, I didn't. I was simply describing the flow of development of how power creep works over time. I simply suggested that whales are more likely to stay on top of new content by virtue of being whales. I never said that F2P cannot acquire the same content or when they will.

    Obviously, because that's how power creep works.

    EDIT
    I reread my post and I can see why you thought I made certain assumptions; I edited it for clarification and what I was really trying to express. It was a bit poorly worded at places because I am also writing this while at work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  9. dbr11

    dbr11 Well-Known Member

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    yeah, just didn't know whether the +30def/30spr made up for that 15% HP or not haha
     
  10. Maverickbp

    Maverickbp VIP VIP

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    It depends on the unit/situation. I'd put bracer on Gilgamesh but rather have celestial for noctis since he's a hybrid. If we're talking arena I rather have bracers all around.
     
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  11. Maverickbp

    Maverickbp VIP VIP

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    Regarding tms and whatnot, Ephemeral does make a good point. It made me think of my World of Warcraft days. Whenever a new raid would come out my guild was able to clear it right away, while most throughout the server would only be able to tackle some parts of it or not enter it at all until they became more powerful.

    I too went back and did all the old trials once missions were released and laughed at how easy they were now. Most content in this game can eventually be cleared in time and that's why they're a permanent fixture in the game. Events of course are another thing altogether.
     
  12. Ephemeral

    Ephemeral Member

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    Yup, same here. I was in a top 10ish guild at least when we were at our best, on our server. When new content was released we did the first clear on the first week whereas worse off guilds were still clearing old content when we were clearing new stuff. In that regard we were considered "whales" because we were always ahead in terms of tackling on new content and we were chasing the top spots on the server and were very much competing against other similarly geared and skilled guilds.

    I remember when Uldamar was released as that was when I really got into more hardcore raiding and we struggled so much with that; now I see videos of people solo'ing Yogg. As a comparison also, but I was playing Age of Ishtaria for a while which is another gacha game similar to FFBE and I was purely F2P there (I do spend on FFBE but I've yet to spend in a way that actually makes a difference; just hoarding my lapis atm), but on the very last event I played during Christmas (shit, it's really a year ago lol), I actually got into the very top 10 ranking. I did blow literally everything I had including my sleep to get there and I failed just barely because fucking sleep man, but the point is, a very dedicated F2P can do what a whale can, but they can't do it as consistently. With that said, the better you score over time, the better rewards you get and the better rewards you get, the easier it is to score higher next time.

    So for comparison 2, I was also playing Summoner's War for several months and just like everyone new, I just sucked beyond. When I did arena, I initially only did it for the daily rewards because I couldn't really beat anyone or get anywhere significant. But as I kept playing the game, I got more rewarded because I performed better in various events such as the arena, so I also got more net returns each week meaning that while I didn't spend a dime on the game, I actually increased my total income value by a fair amount by virtue of simply playing the game and getting better at it. For a mathematical comparison, by scoring in the bottom ranks you barely got anything, say 10 crystals, but for scoring rank 1500+ like I did consistently before I quit, you got like 100 crystals or something. That's a ridiculous increase in value for simply getting better at the game. While I think FFBE isn't quite as rewarding in the arena because you "only" get pots and no lapis (I do think, in order to create a healthier player base though, that giving out some lapis for each rank would be fair, to be honest, but that's an aside; it would create more incentive for non-whales to spend their laps on stuff and it would prevent hoarding while making people happier overall because there is a greater likelihood to get what they want), you see how this applies to the time-limited events. Just scoring in the event gives you lapis and I am honestly annoyed we get summoning tickets at certain ranks over lapis as I frankly find lapis to hold more value overall because it allows you to do more things so it's really odd to me that they give out x4 tickets at rank 101 and below than say, 1500 or even 1000 lapis + 1 ticket. But I digress.

    Returning to SR, I could of course never compete and chase those 2000+ arena points like whales did because I didn't have the time and resources do that what they did, but I can say that I could comfortably play at the level I did and pretty much do anything I wanted in that game (I still think SR has one of the best F2P models out there, though). The only two things I couldn't do just before I quit was doing Giants B10 and Tower of Trials level 100 clear because I lacked some crucial units to do it and I didn't find it worthwhile to spend everything I had to pray to RNGJesus and hope I get what I needed to get there because it wasn't quite necessary; I would have gotten there sooner or later anyway. I mean, just look at how people cry over diamonds here... SR is no different lol.

    What paying money to games like these do is that they simply speed things up a ton and speeding things up a ton and over time builds up into a snowballing effect so the better you become the less you also need to invest in most things. We can for example take such a basic mechanic such as using a lapis refill at rank 50 vs rank 100, where you get double value for the same amount of lapis at rank 100. I have spent over 5k lapis easily the past weeks on refills alone trying to power-level myself through story-content; imagine if I was level 100 all this time using those refills. I'd probably use at least half of that lapis spent even though I regained some thanks to easy level ups and free lapis from there etc.

    So the thing about games like these is that they always become easier over time. I mean, I get angry when I think about all the good stuff I missed out as a returning player compared to you guys that've been playing for months having a bunch of DW and other nice TMs where my Chiz is at 13%. Spending money is always just a shortcut because it shortens down this downtime a lot and most people just don't feel like they have the patience to sit and wait through it all. I mean, if people had to choose and there was no down-side, I know everyone would spend money on getting their TMs done over grinding it mindlessly for months and months. I do think the way TMs are implemented atm is a bit of bad design, but that's another aside.

    I'm sorry, I wrote another novel, but whatever.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  13. CUSANOVA

    CUSANOVA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You know i only have 2 TM until today, that is dual wield and blade mastery, its come from all the trust mog reward and things and trust me it is enough to finish all the boss they have without struggle. So imo, its not worth your time to farm TMR so seriously when u can play for fun and rely on moogle from event.
     
  14. Dandman

    Dandman Well-Known Member

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    i used to think this way but I now think of tm's as investments. I grind them now to make future grinding easier and avoid hitting walls later on. as i don't spend for refills, I now find more value in tm grinding than grinding for some of the event items.
     
  15. Arinoch

    Arinoch Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Honestly, assuming I can get Orlandu (or weep and figure out wtf after draining all my resources), my goal with TMs is being able to help my friends. That's definitely worth my time. How many times has Oboi saved my ass in a trial or event where I've made a dumb mistake?

    I've grinded a second excalibur and a second dual wield exclusively for Orlandu. I'm working on Karl's TM now, Gafgarion, and later today Hayate (second Excalibur is actually at 99.3% right now) with the intent to load up Orlandu as best I can.

    If I get him and have a lot of lapis left? I'm unlocked tons of friend slots and coming straight to the forum to help anyone who wants an Orlandu friend.

    Am I setting up the biggest house of cards ever? I'd rather be prepared for success than failure! ^^
     
  16. DarkCobra

    DarkCobra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you get Orlando that pimped up, add me lol.
     
  17. Maverickbp

    Maverickbp VIP VIP

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    Exactly. Units come and go due to power creep but tms last forever!

    Lol somewhat. It does get a lil annoying for ppl that spent the time/lapis to farm say a bunch of Shantotto's 30% mag tm only to have future tms come out that add extra stats on top of the 30% mag. Of course we have tons of units and only so many stats so there has to be stuff like that. Unless they want to start adding stats like dexterity, hit chance/accuracy, etc then they could add new tms. I think that may be a bit much for the casual gamer tho.
     
  18. Wdiggums

    Wdiggums Well-Known Member

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    I used my 75% tm kefka right into ace and 6* maxed him in about an hout lol. Dumb sounding now but we all needed aces for that last event, not to mention if i remember correctly ace is pretty powerful. Up now to 510 magic with nothing really special just using large magic pots decent rod earings and canning cut cards for 10% mag. Cheers all have fun. I do struggle with some elt levels though as i have no better than 2 maxed cods as main attackers, i have the luck with magic tossers as it were exdeaths arcs ace no dark fina though.
     
  19. FaRFrOmPoOpIn

    FaRFrOmPoOpIn Ascended Member Supporter

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    i would have kept kefks, ribbon is a very usefull tm because it negates all negative status except stop i think, and his 6* is a beast.when he gets it.
     
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  20. Killerdemon

    Killerdemon Well-Known Member Supporter

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    sorry it is a little of topic but I had to reply here having found another summoner lol
    for 2 years that was my game.

    again of topic, but that game could be the most addictive/frustrating thing I ever played. SW and ffbe are comparable by being similar games. however the arena there was really wild and fearce. I remember staying awake just trying to keep above the 3000 top while praying that my arena def would hold. above that was just to much for me...

    SW had however RNG simply everywhere and although the violent procs and oder stuff kept the game uncertain and no player could ever say he was on top because even his perfect rune set up and unit line up, could be ruined by a proc sequence, and that was also what make me eventually go. That game and its absurd drop rate (runes, power up, monsters, etc) was so low and random that in the end, the feeling of not being rewarded for my efforts so many times was just too much.

    That arena had however only a little pay to win when comparing ti ffbe. There is little difficulty on winning arena matches here and you don't even have to worry about your defense. In the end, with some f2p exceptions, it's all about who has more money to inject in order to be on top. So by comparison in SW I really admired the top regulars and watched many SW youtubers... in here I give little credit to those who are on the top 10...well, they have of course some merit, but mostly deep pockets. if it's true that with hard dedication and a bit of luck a f2p can stay on top3000 with no/few refills, it's also true that, imo, virtually 95%or more of the players above 3000 are just paying to be there, and that's something easily attainable looking at absurdity if points that the top players have ... And that's the only sad thing about it...

    overall, ffbe has the merit however of making their players feel indeed rewarded. If you work for your TMr for example, you know that your effort will be rewarded by getting that item... in SW Even after similar or worse grinding one could simply get something totally worthless. And now that I look back, SW is ironically maybe, because of some of the reasons above mentioned, what drives to TMr here.

    and that's it. I just wanted to share that =)
     
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