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7* units that still are/will be useful

Discussion in 'Unit Discussion' started by Axwind, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:21 AM.

  1. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    Just what the title says and what nobody here seems to have made a thread about yet. Which 7* units are still useful/will be useful when they arrive? The wiki still ranks them, so they're not totally obsolete yet. It'd be good to know which ones are notable. So can we have a list here, both of units already out and those that are on the way? Obviously it'll grow over time, but I think it can help. Thanks.
     
  2. The Tower XVI

    The Tower XVI Ascended Member Supporter

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    The first two that come to mind are Sylvie and MM Xon. But Xon has lost some ground to NV Ling because of her AOE killer spread.
     
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  3. Backosteel

    Backosteel "Hall of Fame" Member Supporter

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    I'm curious if Vaan is still viable as a dodge provoke breaker?
     
  4. Seph1roth5

    Seph1roth5 Ascended Member

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    anyone can be dodge/provoke. Breaker gear just tends to be less important so more room.

    But I used vaan fairly often for his break/imperil for FTKO. Although Louise has better fire stuff/spr break, vaan definitely has the role compression down.

    Sylvie definitely after her big revamp, um...I still use doc aiden for dark aoe imbue/imperil. Used to use lunafreya for the same thing (but water) before I got yoshikiri. Got some use out of minwu for FTKO stuff as well, before Sylvie (don't have NV Edel). Been a while since I needed mm xon as well but he can still be pretty powerful if you're not nv'd out the ass.
     
  5. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    BB.Rem: 40 LS AoE entruest (enough to fill some NV dmg dealers, including Terra), 120% Fire, Ice, Lightning imperil
    Sylvie: ST, one-use entrust + LB dmg, Lightning/Earth/Light 30% dmg buff, 120% imperil, and Imperil
    Relm: Rare 35% Rod imperil, 15% Fire/Lightning dmg buff, 100% AoE LB dmg buff, 30 LS AoE entrust, 120% Fire/Lightning imperil
    MM.Xon: Imbue, Killer mirroring, universal support chaniner
    Rena: AoE Light imbue + 120% imperil, Neticite
    D.Aiden: AoE Dark imbue + 110% imperil
    Lunafreya: AoE Water imbue + 120% imperil, Aquan killer
    Minwu: ST entrust + LB dmg (in case you need to imbue two units)
    Vaan: 85% break, 1-stack Mirage, 130% Fire imperil
    DD.Vanille: 85% break, 130% Earth imperil, AoE Earth imbue
    Conche: AoE Lightning/Water/Dark imbue + 120% imperil, 25% water/dark dmg buff, 30% Lightning dmg buff.
    Steiner: Niche Reflect ( I don't know if Marrie's Reflect works the same way, if so she is another candidate).
    Rinora: 2-stack mirage

    With Rare/Uncommon/One-of-a-kind abilities in bold.

    I may miss some names, still.

    Edit: By the way, I recommend using these units only as a 'for the time being' solution (except those one-of-a-kind abilities). The game has already moved to a new meta. Move along with the meta is probably a better approach to build your team.
     
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  6. Isaac

    Isaac "Hall of Fame" Member

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    This is an awesome list - thanks.
     
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  7. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    Thanks for the suggestions. What about upcoming 7* units? Not just the ones that are already out.
     
  8. The Tower XVI

    The Tower XVI Ascended Member Supporter

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    Real hard to determine that because it could be the case that: we don't get a future 7* unit, or that any future 7* unit could get upgraded or nerfed in global, all because iTs a DifFeReNt GaMe
     
  9. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    We're still getting more 7* units - Avalanche's Jessie is coming out Thursday, for example - so people can at least guess.
     
  10. Ender7477

    Ender7477 Ascended Member

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    So, of the 5 upcoming 7* units (yes, it is just 5 up to the newest banner in JP) the following look like things you might use them for:

    Avalanche Jessie: 87% def/spr break and 120% all element imperil on LB (69/40 lb crysts), Brave and Faith (enhances to include lb dmg buff)
    Avalanche Biggs & Wedge: 75% mit, 50% mag mit. 3t on 5t CD
    Mog: LB (250% all stat buff with 75% insect killer). CD (230% buff, 100% lb dmg buff)
    Umaro: nothing, only has regular attack and LB
    Braska: 30x evoke LB mod buff, Lightning evoke smg LB (w/ field effect)

    So the few 7* units going forward have very marginal/niche uses (in my opinion).
     
  11. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    Jessie has an 80% full break to 1 enemy and 75% full break to all enemies that can be used at will, too - why aren't they mentioned? And is easily-obtainable innate 100% evade AND 100% innate auto-provoke not useful? 100% all-elemental imperil to all enemies? Substantial MP & limit bar recovery to all allies that can be used at any time? Giving attack evasion to all allies while reducing accuracy for all enemies? The fact that all her magic and abilities can be triple-cast, same as NV units? Meaning she could 80% full break 3 enemies in one turn, for example. Or double-cast her elemental imperil for 200% to all enemies and recover the group's MP and limit bars at the same time. She can easily break and imperil at will without relying on her LB. And she has an auto-cast 65% full break to all enemies at the start of the fight as well.
     
  12. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    If you want to know;

    In the current meta, for a dedicated breaker, a type of units that Jessie is supposed to be, provides 85% all stats ST on-demand, 85% AoE on LB/CD, or 80% all stats AoE on demeand. WITH higher break on CD or LB. Her LB is good in vacuum, but since she cannot use it on the first turn drops it's value by a lot. To work around that, you would need an external entruster instead (while other top-tier break can use their CD to achieve higher break as a first-turn solution).

    Currently, any units can be geared as an evade-provoker trivially. So this point doesn't really make any difference for Jessie since she won't need her equipment slot for anything special anyway. (If she has spectacular dmg output (aka ~1000x dmg mod which is a typical number for solid dmg dealer these days) that would be a different story.)

    Her MP regen is pointless as you usually don't spend turn after turn after turn casting abilities times after times anymore. The meta is more about setting up the burst turn, and drop a big dmg, which is usually an LB costing no MP, in one go.

    For LB dmg buff, once you start talking about turn 2 or later, 150% LB dmg buff means nothing since almost all dmg dealers can provide themselves with bigger buffs (200% is the typical value). For turns later than the first turn, it should really be 250%+ (to make it better than what other units already have). But if you want to use that on the first turn, there are better options among 7* (there are those who can give 150% LB dmg buff and other things on top) and you won't be able to use that with her LB no matter what. (Let alone if you want to make that 150% useful on the first-turn strategy, everything else in her skill set is useless/pointless).

    Likewise, her 120% is redundant since once we talk about second turn onward, pretty much all dmg dealer can provide that for themselves. But again, she cannot provide that for your team on the first turn efficiently.

    Her Mirage is another useless case since when you need mirage, you typically need it every turn which she cannot provide.

    87% is good. However, she doesn't bring anything else that make her worth a unit slot in the team and other units with 85% break plus some other stuffs like Elemental dmg buff, stats buffs, or others. ( Going from 85% break to 87% break increase 15% more dmg which you can get the same or bigger amount for other type of buffs. (Going to 90% from 85% is 50% more dmg and that is a more compelling increase for a unit slot.)

    To be honest, Jessie's issue is not being to able to use her LB on the first turn by herself, and lack of any CD to help patching that. If anything, fwiw, back in the early 7* era, where top-tier breaker provides 75% (Loren, Auron, etc.), Dietlinde came out providing a whoppy 84% DEF break on her LB and that didn't make her anything special either due to the exact same reason.

    You can go ahead and compare her with other good breaker in 7* rarity, say DD.Vanille or Vaan. Or you can see other non-dedicated breaker like Sylvie. You will see how comparably pale Jessie is.

    For example, here are what Vaan provides:
    -Buff-only dispel (rare ability)
    -85% all stats break AoE (available first turn)
    -1-stack mirage every turn
    -130% Fire/Wind resistance (Uncommon)

    For Jessie
    -150% LB dmg buff (Make no sense to the meta)
    -MP regen (mostly useless)
    -120% all element imperil (can't use first turn. When the second turn comes, most dmg dealer can provide that themselves making it redundant)
    75%/80% (too weak)
    -Evade-provoker (anyone can also to the same)
    -2-stack mirage (impractical)
    -87% (Good)
     
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  13. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    Metas change, though. You've got to keep that in mind. And her MP regen would be useful against bosses who drain MP, which still come up. Think outside just the super high end trials. There's more to the game than that. And how can anyone be an evade provoker? I don't recall any easily obtainable equipment/abilities that make it easy to get to 100% on any unit in both categories. And Jessie's on-demand ST all-stats break is 80% and her AoE break is 75%. You're telling me 5% is really that big a difference? And her doing the LB buff means other characters don't have to waste a turn doing it themselves. You don't need to be able to provide her Mirage every turn because it lasts for 4 turns. And a tank should be handling the enemy's physical attacks anyway. And Jessie's on-demand element imperil is 100%. You're telling me she can't double-cast that for 200% imperil in one turn while also full breaking the entire enemy group?
     
  14. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    1) If your team's MP is drained, Jessie won't be able to use her own MP regen either since it costs MP. So, stay useless.
    2) Yes, 5% is that big difference. From 80% to 85%, you increase damage by about 33%. (And even more from 85% to 90%, but not so much from 85% to 87%) 75%-80% is subpar for today standard.
    3) If you use her LB dmg buff, everything else in her skill is useless. And she cannot provide anything else on top, while other better 7* can. 100-150% AoE LB dmg buff is standard these days.
    4) No, that Mirage say it allows each unit to negate 2 physical attacks in total within 4 turns. If you negate twice, it is used up and gone. If you don't negate, but wait 4 turns, it will disappear.
    5) No. The most common strategy these days is using Magic Cover tank to block Magic Attack (which cannot be evaded reliably) and use Mirage to avoid any AoE phy Attack if there are.
    6) Imperil doesn't stack. Only the stronger one counts.
    7) Yes. Evade provoker is not that hard to build. Moogle Charm is easily obtainable. A bunch of TMR/STMR provides 20-30% evade these days. It is not buy-off-the-shelf, but it doesn't make units who can achieve that special either.
    8) Outside of high-end trial, there are literally no other contents that unit performances make any difference. You can use any units and your team will appear "strong", even though it is actually not. There is pretty much no point talking about which units are better for those contents. KM ? Go for bonus units. Raid ? Go for bonus units. Main Story ? Any units will do. Story Event ? Any units will do. Weapon Enhancement ? Any decent 7* will do. CB ? Go for bonus units. For high-end contents, DV ? yes, we are talking role compression and how to min-max damage here. CoW ? yes. Another role compression and dmg min-max. Trials ? Yes, form strategy and team and use you best units to beat challenging bosses. So, if you want to discuss about what units are good/bad, the only context that makes sense is those difficult contents.
     
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  15. Ender7477

    Ender7477 Ascended Member

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    Imperil's don't stack so 100% on demand being dual cast is still 100%.

    Her MP would be drained as well, so her MP battery abilities don't mean anything in that situation.

    A mirage that isn't on demand means you can't count on it. It is two mirages over 4 turns. 2 AoE attack in 1 turn gets rid of it and she can't reapply it.

    And the difference between an 85% break and 90% break is that big. Think of it this way, if the enemy has 100 defense and you break it for 75% then the enemy only has 25 def. If you break for 80% it only has 20 def. But the defense stat is in the denominator or the equation. So you divide by it for your damage. So an 80% break will deal 25% more damage than a 75%. Expand that to 85 and 90 and you will see that 85% will deal 33% more damage than 80% and 90% will deal 50% more damage than 85%. I think my math is correct on this.

    As for the LB dmg buff on Faith (100%) and Brave (150%) they don't bring anything to a 1-turn kill because you still want a better imperil and break than she can give. Add in that she can't imbue and adding her to a team is most likely reducing the damage dealt SIGNIFICANTLY because either you are making due with subpar abilities or removing a DD to fit in everything you need (since the burst is probably coming from an LB finisher that on turn 1 can't do their own imperils.

    So for the real content of the game (DV, CoW, and maybe newer trials), those abilities just don't bring anything to the table. I know you are hyped for her, and if you don't have better than using her makes sense. But everything @aa25 pointed out about her is correct.

    Having said all that. I know you love that unit and have been looking forward to her for quite some time. So have a blast with her if you pull her.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021 at 7:20 PM
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  16. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    if her MP is high enough, she won't lose more than it takes to cast the regen. So it's still useful. And I'm tired of any unit that isn't the absolute literal max in every way being dismissed as trash. Not everyone plays the game the same way, so you shouldn't just look at the high end trials just because that's what you play. And just because a strategy is common doesn't mean it's the only one. Physical tanks still exist and are used. You have a team full of units for a reason. And Jessie being a full innate evade provoker means you don't need to give someone else that role, and it takes less equipment/ability slots to do so as well.

    Again, as long as her MP is high enough to start out with, she'll still have enough left over to cast her MP regen. And why be so obsessed with taking out a trial boss on the first turn, anyway? Why does it have to be that way? Why couldn't they make her unit better? It should've been NV, and hopefully she'll get an NV awakening later and/or a true NV base unit. I'm tired of her getting less because of the bad excuse "NPC must never be given substantial attention/good unit" that seems to be the norm. As if doing so would cause the game to self-destruct.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021 at 7:45 PM
  17. Ender7477

    Ender7477 Ascended Member

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    Her MP stat could be 9999, if her spirit isn't high enough it will be 0 after the attack that drains MP. And when they have done these bosses to my memory, the MP drain moves are HEAVY MP drains.

    Physical tanks are almost never used anymore because they have pushed the meta to mirage and magic cover. There are a couple trials that are exceptions, but 90% of content can be done with no physical tank and a full evade/provoke buffer/breaker. That is just how it is. And for most trials, bringing a physical cover and magic provoker would get you wiped quickly. Her ease of being built for it can be a plus, but I can build a complete full evade team if I want. The equipment/materia are prevelant now so high innate evasion isn't as big of a deal. The innate provoke is nice, but added accuray will negate her evade when active and her accuracy debuff is useless as most bosses with accuracy would still hit with a 25% debuff. Or even worse, she will take ALL of the ST magic until the cover tank procs (which could be a couple hits and she probably wouldn't survive that).

    As far as first turn and one-turn kills, the game is designed that way right now. The last thing you want in high end content is to take a large chunk off the bosses HP and not kill it. That is a recipe of horrible retaliation and AI changes.

    If you don't care about the high end content, then she is fine. But that is where the challenge with the game is, and she just won't cut it there. Really, most 7* won't unless it is DV and CoW where you can usally negate all damage so their diminished stats are not an issue.

    And while I wouldn't have cared if she had been an NV, they are selling nostalgia for the most part. We don't form as deep of attachments to the NPC's as we do the story characters we use. So making her NV probably didn't make it high enough on the cost analysis to put in the extra work. Her part in FF7R is bigger than the original, but they still view it that way and probably won't change ever. At least you are getting a version of her, unlike so many others on the forum who their long awaited units have never materialized. Could always do what I do with my Xenogears units. They are my permanent IW party (unless I needed bonus units for a unique on a weapon).
     
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  18. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    If you have your own way of playing the game and your own way of evaluating units, what is the point of this thread then ? If you want to value MP regen ability that itself requires MP and some passive Provoke/Evade that much, I won't stop you. If you don't want to one-shot and/or develop team for one-shot these grind-centric, but want to spend 10 turns chirping down the bosses, I won't stop you either. It is your game, play however you want to. But keep in mind, if you ask questions like this, you are going to get answers that are based on what most people are using. And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who play the game the way I am playing either.
     
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  19. Axwind

    Axwind Ascended Member

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    The problem is, if you're putting on all that evade equipment on all those characters, you're not using those slots to buff their stats, and they'll be lower. And like I said, metas change. It won't always be the way it is now. Why still make 7* units if they're not usable? And the remake is still popular and units from it a selling point, so don't discount the possibility of her getting an NV awakening/unit. They didn't just call her unit "Jessie", they called it "Avalanche's Jessie". And typically, units with descriptors next to their names tend to have or get variant units, suggesting that Jessie may get another unit later on, likely NV. Or an NV awakening at the very least. She's got a good chance of returning for Remake Part 2, so giving her a stronger unit down the line is not a bad idea. And I wouldn't mind so much about her being 7* for now if they'd done a better job of it. Just once, I'd like to see her get just as much as the other girls. Just. One. Time. And what's IW?

    Because I want to know she has some usefulness. It's a disservice to her character to give her a unit nobody'll use. And why does it matter how many turns you beat a boss in as long as you beat it?
     
  20. Ender7477

    Ender7477 Ascended Member

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    Just remember, they made 3* and 4* units long after they were useful. And with only 5 new 5/7* units over the next couple of months I would assume they are phasing them out like they did 3/4* units. She might get an NVA (though that is likely long off since she is just now being released) or even a new NVB at some point. It could happen, but I would expect new NVB of Cid, Yuffie, Zack, Vincent, Barrett, Cait Sith, and Red XIII before. Though expectations like that have been wrong many times before.

    One other bonus, at least they didn't do her dirty like NVB Rikku. They gave her abilities from 4* Rikku's TMR without upgrading the mods. Brand new flashy NVB in JP with a move with a 2x mod. And not many moves to begin with (which is going to be a trend going forward from what I have seen of JP units).

    IW is Item World (Melfikya's Castle) for upgrading weapon with the rng bonus stats. Difficulty never got bumped so I just repeat everything to death with Elly.
     

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