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[Discussion] Sieghard VS Wilhelm VS Lilith for 100% physical evade

Discussion in 'Unit Discussion' started by feitian87, Dec 8, 2018 at 4:09 AM.

  1. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Hi All,

    I was initially on the plan to make my 7* Wilhelm 100% physical evade. He is currently at 100%, but not ideal as I am using Zwill Crossblade, Demon Shield, Raven Beret, Assassin's Vest, Lucky Bangles, Twenty-Sided Die, True Spirit of Freedom, Quick Assault, Evade, First Strike and Tetra Sylphid with 5% physical evade. As you can see, this build does not allow for coverage of status immunity and deathproof. And such, my next target is for Noctis's Ring of Lucii to replace Lucky Bangles, freeing up the shield slot for Genji shield (deathproof) and materia slot for Seed or Hope (full status immunity) and Esper slot so he can attach Golem or Lakshmi or whoever else.

    I know a lot of people frown upon my decision to build Wilhelm 100% evade and prefer to just epeen build him for p.eHP. But after having Iron Giant deal 65k damage to my p.eHP Wilhelm, I decided to just forget about epeen build and go with 100% evasion, and it has helped me clear so many trials and 3* esper fights so easily.

    So if we considering 100% physical evade, which of the 3 tanks would actually benefit most or be the best 100% evade tank? Currently, I was under the impression that Lilith be built m.eHP and Sieghard for 100% auto-provoke or full elemental resist, so that leaves Wilhelm with 100% evade? Or would Sieghard/Lilith make a better 100% physical evade tank?

    @Arkadi since you have so many different builds of Lilith and used her successfully as 100% evade tank too, maybe youbcan share some insights?

    @Caliber since you're an avid user of Lilith too, maybe you can share some views on this topic?

    @Bitzpleze since you're one of the few (or only) members that have openly stated that building Wilhelm 100% evade is totally fine, maybe you could share your opinions on this topic?

    @Arnatuile since you are a "proud evade user", maybe you could share your thoughts on this topic?

    Also, anyone is free to discuss and share your thoughts! This is not a troll post and I am sincerely hoping for some answers/insights/opinions/advice. Thanks in advance! Cheers!
     
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  2. Arnatuile

    Arnatuile Wolf of Lapis Street. Proud Evade user. Staff Member Moderator VIP Supporter

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    Hi, thanks for asking my opinion :)

    As long as you are using physical evasion for provoking ST physical attacks, I honestly don't think it matters that much whom you choose. If the tank has no innate physical evasion (like Wilhelm, Sieghard, WoL, VoE, A. Rain), no matter whom you choose, you need the same kind of gear for all of them and then the choice is basically thrown upon what else the tank can do for you in the off-turns. Which is why someone like Zarga, or even Elfreeda, can work better than others as a pure evade provoke tank, for certain battles. Wilhelm will counter a heck ton of a lot when provoking, so there is that. Similar considerations apply to evade physical AoE tanks.

    The "issue" with evade becomes more preeminent when trials start requiring your tank has elemental resistance gear (because of uncoverable AoE elemental damage) and/or when your ST provoke tank also has to soak ST magic damage. For Shiva & Golem and for Gilgamesh reborn (the next two trials according to JP schedule) evade will work perfectly (in fact, it's the recommended strategy), but issues might start coming up with Dark Esper's reborn trial, the first trial that has a significative amount of AoE uncoverable magic damage.

    Hope this helps.
     
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  3. Caliber

    Caliber SkipL0rd and GLEX warrior VIP

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    I have never built Lilith physical evade, but I would imagine she’d sacrifice a lot of stats to get there, personally I prefer running her as fully statted aoe physical or magical cover based on the trial and having beryl 100% evade provoke next to her

    He takes all the ST physical with evasion and all the ST magical with his really high spr stat and the mitigation on his Provoke
    He also takes the ST stop since he’s immune

    It’s a good combo
     
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  4. Absolem

    Absolem "Hall of Fame" Member Supporter

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    If Phys eHp isn't enough, there's still a couple better options than just jumping into 100% evade, especially with those high stats 7* tanks. Better breaks - whenever it's possible -, better buffs, dammage mitigation - both general and type -, and probably a few more - using Guard, reraise, ele resist... If your units can't do that, bring a friend.

    100% evade can still save your ass sometimes, but it's no longer the best option out there.
     
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  5. Manveru

    Manveru Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone has a 7* tank, so Evade tanking is still pretty damn legit. Fixed damage is actually very rare and usually not a problem.
     
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  6. Cyns

    Cyns Ascended Member Supporter

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    I doesn’t matter what tank you use evade gear on. Evade is all about the gear not who you place it on since they will all achieve the same result.

    I suggest trying to do more with your p.eHP build on Wilhelm. Soon that will be what you want instead of evade because that will let you keep more of your tankiness while still having some room to adjust your builds. Just see what you can change instead of just giving up and moving to evade since evade won’t always work.
     
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  7. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Thanks for your reply and explanation. It makes a lot of sense that the choice for 100% evade is then determined by the tank's kit on what they can do on the off-turns since you are right that Sieghard and Wilhelm (in my case I only have these 2 physical tanks) both require the same gear to attain 100% evade. And the deciding factor would then be whose kit is more useful for the particular trial.

    And you have also highlighted an important point about the other considerations when gearing for 100% evade, which is whether the tank can survive the uncoverable AoE elemental damage or magic damage after being geared 100% evade.
     
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  8. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Hi, thanks for your input. Wow, that is a nice combo of Lilith with Beryl. It makes sense building him 100% physical evade and he can provoke and evade the ST physical hits while surviving the ST magical hits with his high SPR stat. Too bad I didn't have the resources to pull for Beryl. :(
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 6:26 AM
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  9. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Hi, thanks for highlighting these factors. You have made an important point.

    When I was having trouble with Iron Giant using p.eHP Wilhelm, it was due to poor breaks. I was still stuck with 50% breaks then. It was apparent to me after my team wiped consistently on the Story Event Bonus Stage Architeuth (however it's spelled) but later on could manage rather comfortable (just nice surviving) after I started to bring HT Lid and spamming her 70% fullbreak LB.

    And guarding is awesome too. I really see the difference in damage taken when Wilhelm guards and when he doesn't.
     
  10. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Okay, I will try again to build for eHP. Because otherwise, I will need to UoC my first Noctis just to TMR Ring of Lucii, which I feel is a waste of UoC. It's just that, I wiped so many times on Venomous Vines that I felt what I needed was a 100% evade deathproof status immune tank... and besides, 100% evade + deathproof is still pretty future proof and nice to cheese trials/3* espers with...
     
  11. Cyns

    Cyns Ascended Member Supporter

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    Can you show me your build?

    My last VV run with Sieg had

    Sieghard 7★
    Right hand: Gigantaxe HP+44%, ATK+76 (IW :HP +12%, HP +10%, HP +7%)
    Left hand: Genji Shield DEF+50, SPR+25
    Head: Grand Helm DEF+45, DEF+20%
    Body: King's Armor DEF+54
    Accessory 1: Millie's Charm HP+10%, MP+10%, DEF+8, SPR+8
    Accessory 2: Ifrit's Claw HP+10%, ATK+30
    Materia 1: Seed of Hope HP+10%
    Materia 2: Hero's Vow - Earth HP+30%, DEF+20%, SPR+20%
    Materia 3: True Hydaelyn Guard
    Materia 4: H Armor Arts HP+30%, DEF+30%
    Esper: Golem HP+93, HP+10%, MP+60, ATK+54, DEF+76, MAG+30, SPR+30
    Total: HP:20342, MP:413, ATK:375, DEF:1195, MAG:216, SPR:472

    The build is a bit weird but that’s because I happened to sell my only copy of domino a while ago so I had to do a bit more to get 100% resist.

    I know Willy is limited to shields so you can drop an accessory for Safety Bit and runna better armor instead of Kings Armor. I had some elemental resist since he was tanking all of the damage, but I was using Loren as my DPS with Barb as a finisher so since I wasn’t dealing fire damage, they didn’t do the ST elemental attack that much.

    I made use of Siegs on phys and general mitigation, but even without it he didn’t take much damage. Willy was solo tanking VV when it came out so I know he should be able to.
     
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  12. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    I can't remember what build I used for Wilhelm back then. But I will try again with Sieghard sometime soon and see how it goes. Thanks!
     
  13. Kurogane

    Kurogane Ascended Member

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    Well, lilith does have a little advantage of having that 10% evade shield and innate resistance to all the worst ailments (petrify, confuse, paralyze, sleep) but she lacks the 100% provoke. I guess she should end up with more M.eHP than the others even if she has to use Golem+Moogle Plushie for provoke, should be a little better since she'll only take magical damage with evade build.
     
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  14. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Controversial view, but makes sense. Thanks!
     
  15. Cyns

    Cyns Ascended Member Supporter

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    If you still need help then PM me.
     
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  16. Arkadi

    Arkadi Ludicrous Speed! VIP Supporter

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    I've used Lilith with 100% evasion physical cover before, but I find that I like using her as the magic cover tank better because then her larger SPR stat shines pretty well and her damage scales off of that anyways. Then you can use anyone with Golem + Moogle Plushie with 100% evasion as your provoke tank. HT Lid, Zargabaath, even Wilhelm with his innate Provoke, etc. all work well when provoking with Lilith magic covering and provide role compression.
     
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  17. Caliber

    Caliber SkipL0rd and GLEX warrior VIP

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    Or beryl
     
  18. Arkadi

    Arkadi Ludicrous Speed! VIP Supporter

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    Yeah, Beryl too, but I don't have him. :(
     
  19. Bitzpleze

    Bitzpleze Mad Sciontist VIP

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    @feitian87 the only thing I can really add to Arna's post is that eventually (and only some content) will feature attacks that cannot be evaded. While evade is fine currently and for stuff to come, there is some motivation to consider building a fat tank... or at least having the gear for it.

    Hope this helps!
     
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  20. feitian87

    feitian87 F2pl0rd VIP Supporter

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    Hi, thanks for the insight!
     
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