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Unit comparison: Wilhelm vs Sieghard

Discussion in 'Unit Reviews' started by Dyingatheist, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. Dyingatheist

    Dyingatheist Ascended Member

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    This will be a overview for me and whoever else is thinking about pulling for Sieghard or UoCing a 2nd copy of Wilhelm. My goal is to be as objective as possible and compare the two. I will be comparing the GL enhanced Wilhelm to JP Sieghard and JP enhanced Sieghard.

    [​IMG] VS [​IMG]

    Equipment selection:
    UnitWeaponsArmour
    Wilhelm[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sieghard[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sieghard has access to a greater variety of equipment and better defensive weapons.

    Base stats:
    UnitHPMPDEFSPROthers
    Wilhelm+110% (11682)+0% (288)+160% (687) +120% (482) Increase DEF/SPR (75%) below 30% HP
    Sieghard+150% (12238)+20% (326)+200%/120% (605)+70%/+150% (409)Increase DEF/SPR (200%) below 1% HP
    e. Sieghard+160% (12794)+20% (326)+220%/140% (660)+90%/+170% (457)Increase DEF/SPR (200%) below 1% HP
    Sieghard's DEF and SPR varies depending on whether light shield/armour or heavy shield/armour was equipped (see italics for DEF focused vs SPR focused). Wilhelm is limited by his TMR being a shield. Overall, Sieghard has more flexibility and will have higher effective health but the difference is not huge.
    NOTE: % are calculated with unit's own TMRs equipped and nothing else. Actual values are calculated with lvl 120, maxed pots and only the unit's own TMR equipped. Some passives have not been activated eg. equip heavy armour etc. and the values may be misleading.
    Resistances:
    UnitStatus resistanceElemental resistance
    Wilhelm+50% resistance to all ailmentsNone
    Sieghard/e. Sieghard+100% resistance to confuse, petrify, charm+50% earth resist
    Wilhelm can reach +100% resist to all ailments with King's Armour in combination with his passive resists allowing more slot efficiency.

    Provoke:
    UnitInnate provokeActive provoke durationMitigationAdditional effects
    Wilhelm+50%3 turns40% DamageNone
    Sieghard/e. Sieghard+50%2 turns40% Physical30% AoE Charm, changes to cover skill after use (upgraded with enhancements), see below
    Sieghard will be able to reach 100% passive provoke with less downsides. Sieghard will lose 80% DEF and 30% HP passives with Moogle Plushie and K Producer's Jacket equipped. Wilhelm on the other hand will have to sacrifice his TMR ability (+30% HP/DEF) and lose a total of 110% DEF, 80% SPR and 30% HP for 100% passive provoke. Wilhelm will also lose a materia slot for Equip Clothes. Wilhelm's provoke lasts 1 turn longer than Sieghard (3 turns vs 2 turns) which allows you more flexibility. However, Sieghard's provoke has AoE 30% charm attached to it. Most bosses are susceptible to charm which gives you 1 turn of free action. In addition, Sieghard's provoke mitigation is physical damage which pairs well with his LB for general damage mitigation. On the other hand, Wilhelm's provoke mitigation is general damage and will require Pod 153 or other sources of physical damage mitigation to compete.

    Cover abilities:
    UnitDamage typeChance to coverDamage mitigationDurationOther effects
    WilhelmPhysical75%50-70%3 turnsNone
    Sieghard/(e. Sieghard)Physical75%50-70%3 turns5% AoE charm (+100% DEF and DEF break resistance for 3 turns)
    -Physical80%60-75%3 turns50% AoE charm, evade 3 physical attacks for 1 turn. (+100% DEF/SPR buff, DEF/SPR break resistance). Unlocked by using provoke
    -Magic75%50-70%2 turns5% AoE charm, 3 turns CD, available on turn 1
    -Physical50%50%Passive coverNone
    Sieghard is able to cover magic in case of emergencies. Both Wilhelm and Sieghard is able to physical cover well. The additional charm effects and buffs makes Sieghard stand out. However, passive cover on Sieghard may mess up magic cover tank.

    Breaks:
    UnitBreak typeBreak percentageDurationAdditional effects
    WilhelmST ATK-60%5 turns4x physical damage with DEF scaling
    -ST MAG-60%5 turns4x physical damage with DEF scaling
    Sieghard/(e. Sieghard)ST DEF-60%5 turns5% charm, 2x physical damage with DEF scaling
    -ST SPR-60%5 turns5% charm, 2x physical damage with DEF scaling
    -ST ATK/DEF/MAG/SPR-50%/(-55%)3 turns5% charm/(20% charm), 2.5x/(4.5x) physical damage with DEF scaling
    -ST Earth resist-100%1 turn2x physical damage with DEF scaling on a 2 turn CD (Piledriver chaining family)
    Wilhelm focuses on breaking ATK/MAG while Sieghard focuses on DEF/SPR with the option of a weaker full break. Sieghard can almost do what Wilhelm can do plus more after enhancements.

    Buffs:
    UnitBuff typeBuff percentageDurationAdditional effects
    WilhelmAoE DEF/SPR+70%5 turnsNone
    -AoE ATK/MAG+50%4 turns+100% LB fill rate
    -AoE LB fill rate+100%1 turn80% chance to activate as counter to physical/magic attacks
    -AoE Damage mitigation+54%1 turnLimit burst (18 crystals), +130% DEF for 3 turns to self
    Sieghard/e. SieghardAoE Damage Mitigation+45%3 turnsLimit Burst (30 crystals), AoE 16.9x physical attack with DEF
    Wilhelm has a lot more supporting buffs compared to Sieghard. Although if you are already using a buffer, you are unlikely to use Wilhelm's buffs. However, the 100% LB fill rate on counters is always welcome. Wilhelm's LB offers more to survive single thresholds while Sieghard's longer duration LB will allow better survivability after the threshold. Both will stack with type specific damage reductions. eg. Seaside Nichol, Pod 153.

    Miscellaneous:
    A couple more things to address. Wilhelm has innate increased chance to counter physical attacks and will be able to assist in generating a decent amount of LB crystals. Sieghard on the other hand has 30% chance to counter magic attacks with 25% HP/MP recovery which is huge for self sustain. Lastly, both Wilhelm and Sieghard have a 90% physical damage mitigation CD skill (4 vs 7 turns CD, respectively). Sieghard in addition gains a 90% magic damage mitigation CD skill (7 turns CD)

    Brief thoughts on M. Ramza:
    Fantastic equipment selection. Innate all status ailment resistance and charm resistance are wonderful. Elemental resists are a bonus. Same active provoke as Wilhelm. No innate provoke. Base stats (80% HP (9559), 40% MP (427) with 5% auto refresh, 150% DEF (303), 110% SPR (397)) are slightly lower than Wilhelm. M. Ramza does have the option to wear robes to boost his MAG/SPR by 50% at the cost of 50% ATK/DEF. Slightly worse physical cover (75% chance with 50-60% damage mitigation). Magic cover (75% chance with 50-60% damage mitigation for 3 turns on 3 turns CD) available allowing him to be a make shift magic tank. Average on demand ATK/MAG breaks (-45%) to unlock 6 turn -60% ATK or MAG break. Better than Wilhelm when enemies use ATK and MAG attacks but worse against single damage type enemies due to needing a turn to unlock -60% breaks. -60% all element break available as a CD skill on turn 6, however you are unlikely to be using this skill. No defensive buffs or mitigation for allies. Entrust with built in +50% LB fill is a very welcomed supporting ability. Also has access to raise, curaga and esunaga. Innate 75% chance to cover ally from physical damage can be problematic. Overall, M. Ramza does a slightly worse job than Wilhelm at tanking. However, M. Ramza excels in his supporting abilities and is a highly slot efficient unit. Damage mitigation skills can be used from other sources to supplement M. Ramza as a tank when faced with tough thresholds.

    Summary:
    Hopefully the comparisons between Wilhelm and Sieghard is clearer now that it's all laid out in front of you. Wilhelm and Sieghard can both tank incredibly well with Sieghard having more bells and whistles. Wilhelm starts to sweat when high SPR and DEF are needed whereas Sieghard will have an easier time. Do note that GL tend to have buffed enhancements which means Sieghard may get even better in the future vs JP enhanced version whereas Wilhelm has almost peaked. Future changes to STMR activating Trust abilities if it comes to GL will make Wilhelm better. However, Sieghard does not require enhancements to perform well, any enhancements that he gets will just be the cherry on top. In my opinion, only downside Sieghard has to Wilhelm is the innate cover.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  2. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    Thanks a lot for the comparison.
     
  3. Fayleen

    Fayleen GLEX admirer and Summary maker VIP Supporter

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    this is interesting and well explained, great job ::up::
    Since i've 1 wilhelm (considering to UoC him), already have 7* basch and curious about sieghard.
    Only 1 question that intrigued on my mind, If i remember provoke ability neglect passive cover ability right?
    If that true, sieghard will be great even if he have single passive cover
     
  4. Enzo

    Enzo VIP VIP Supporter

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    The only downside of Sieg compared to Wilhelm for me is that I already have Wilhelm at 7*, and my resources are limited.
     
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  5. squirtletheturtle

    squirtletheturtle Ascended Member Supporter

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    2 things:
    • For Wilhelm's Draw Attacks set, he needs to lose a materia slot as well (for Equip Clothes materia), in order to equip K Producer's Jacket. Sieghart can equip clothes innately, so he doesn't have this problem.
    • You should mention their LBs. Wilhelm = 54% 1 turn AOE mitigation, Sieghart = 45% 3 turn AOE mitigation.
     
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  6. Dyingatheist

    Dyingatheist Ascended Member

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    Added the bit about equip clothes. I did mention the LB in the buffs section.
     
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  7. Raelf

    Raelf "Hall of Fame" Member

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    Merc Ramza vs Sieghard?
     
  8. Mcleod

    Mcleod Der Langrisserlord - Retired VIP Supporter

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    You forgot the insta valor of Wilhelm filling lb like no one business, that alone outshine sieghart for me. He can fill 2b or hyoh for the matter on 2-3 turns.

    There is no need for someone who has the mustache to pull for sieghart.
     
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  9. Lótus Haddock

    Lótus Haddock Well-Known Member

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    I'll stay with my M. Ramza, thanks ::rudecat11::

    P.S. I don't have many equips with LB support, so entrust is very good to use on my Loren :D
     
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  10. Manveru

    Manveru "Hall of Fame" Member

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    #TeamLiquidMetalSlime
     
  11. Dyingatheist

    Dyingatheist Ascended Member

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    M. Ramza might have trouble in the future with survivability. Sample builds maximized for effective physical health:

    Wilhelm 37495632 Physical eHP

    Sieghard 39755584 Physical eHP (not optimized due to lack of GLEX TMRs in builder)

    e. Sieghard 42071380 Physical eHP (not optimized due to lack of GLEX TMRs in builder)

    M Ramza 29925064 Physical eHP

    *builds where Wilhelm and Sieghard has resist to all status ailments still resulted in ~20% or higher physical eHP than M. Ramza.
     
  12. Tanatos

    Tanatos "Hall of Fame" Member Supporter

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    T.H.I.S!!
     
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  13. Moogle_Whisperer

    Moogle_Whisperer Ascended Member

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    This has been very helpful. Thanks!
    The lack of a top tier physical tank has been the Achilles heel of my teams for a long time now, having never pulled Wil or Ramza, so I've been saving up to go for Seig. Here's hoping it pays off!
     
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  14. Shadowschild

    Shadowschild Ascended Member

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    I have both at 7* and will always take wilhelm. If the boss has magic that will totally kill my party a dedicated magic tank will do. Sieghard has only one useful attribute, his tmr. In the future if they can extend his magic barrier duration I might concider using him. For now he is staying at level 101 and his tmr goes on wilhelm.
     
  15. YannC

    YannC v00d00 VIP

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    Thanks and agree overall. I have 7* Willy and have been trying out my 7* Sieg this week. I think in turns of tankiness they are really close. If you are playing the game wrong and can’t survive with Willy if you made a mistake, you also won’t survive with Sieg.

    I have been trying to charm the bosses but so far I haven’t had much success lol. I think he has some frills but in general, the difference is not huge. His biggest benefit I think is he has so many free turns... his lb compliments Noel’s kit too- I will be running him with 7* Noel, his lb and Noel’s type mitigation make them literally indestructible.
     
  16. Arekusu

    Arekusu VIP VIP

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    There’s a finite # of crystals that drop each turn. If your tank doesn’t get them, your chainers will. If your tank gets all of them, your chainer don’t get you any extras.

    It’s already been pointed out that you can enhance Assassin’s Dagger (+HP, High Tide) and give that to Sieg and he will have auto-counters just like Willy if you really want to go that route.

    It’s a moot point. Sieg IS the better tank, it’s not a debate. I get we’re all bummed about mustache not being #1 anymore, but it’s the facts. He got powercrept, though not by a ton. He’s still totally usable but in the future that draw tank stuff is pretty darn important.
     
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  17. Mcleod

    Mcleod Der Langrisserlord - Retired VIP Supporter

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    You really did not read what i posted, did you?
    Let me be a bit more clear. Valor is an instant lb 100% filler party wide that cost 0 actions and it's 80% proc, that's aside of the insane counters of Willhelm wich does not need specific weapons. Moreover he can also equip high tide for GUARANTEED lb per turn, that's 54% mitigation and 130% def self buff.
    So let's recap:
    - Don't need to cast eccentric or any ability to get 100% lb boost.
    - Guaranteed lb almost every turn.

    This is my Willhelm build, and no, Sieghart as it is currently it's not better than Willhelm (and yes i do have him).
    It allows me to bring 2 tdh fd 2B without worrying about crystals on break turns, or low count chainer's. Crystals are life for maximize damage on many whale setups which is why i prefer Wilhelm and will remain mustache King until Sieghart gets enhancements.
     
  18. fireflyege

    fireflyege Ascended Member

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    You don't read the unit skills, do you? It seems that you do not care much about the future meta either. Valor is %100 High Tide, that much is true. However, the future supports have more than %100 High Tide on their usual rotations. MS Nichol and Roy are the best examples of it. A buff, no matter how great, sucks when they are overwritten meanwhile Sieghard has %150 INNATE High Tide which stacks with the support buffs, a close mitigation number to Wilhelm and lasts 3 turns on top of that. Even if Wilhelm does need to use his LB every turn, he has to stop for cover or provoke since he has a 3 turn duration. Sieg can cover while sacrificing fewer stats for his auto provoke build and loop his LB on top of that and his utility isn't overwritten not even by Zargabaath who has %40 while Sieg has %45 and with better upkeep. Not to mention he can emergency full break to save lives or use a %100 earth imperil while chaibing with the Piledriver family which is one of the best chaining families for earth element because of Aileen. IDK about your favoritism but the choice is clear for most of us.

    Mustache is still usable and you can still use it but please snap back to reality. He is powercrept though not by a large margin.
     
  19. lupinorris

    lupinorris Well-Known Member

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    its almost 2019 and this still going on?
     

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