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Units I should keep an eye out for?

Discussion in 'Unit Discussion' started by Culpra, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. Culpra

    Culpra Well-Known Member

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    Just here to ask for some opinions on what units I should look out for, I'm pretty sure for the time being, my bases are covered, but what roles should I prioritize in upgrading and who to upgrade the role with.

    Current Units
    Phys Chainer: Jecht, Tifa, Sephiroth, Hyoh.
    Mag Chainer: Christine, Trance Terra, Lunera.
    Hybrid Chainer: Kunshira
    Phys Finisher: Aranea?
    Mag Finisher: Blossom Sage Sakura
    Hybrid Finisher: Kunshira
    Phys Tank: Wilhelm, Basch
    Mag Tank: Awakened Rain, Basch
    Healer : E.Eiko, Folka
    Buffer: Maritime Strategist Nichol(6*), Lunera
    Breaker: Machina-
     
  2. Masvroh

    Masvroh "an elder brother" VIP

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    Nice! You have good units for every roles covered. But you may upgrade your breaker and buffer.

    Machina is good, but his breaks are only single target. AoE breaker definitely a massive upgrade. You may pick Loren, Auron, or HT Lid in 5* select summon. But those breakers need to be on 7* form. If you don't have any dupes of those, you can wait for summer and hope we get the same unit as JP, the fan service unit summer Fina & Lid. The unit is a CG unit and.... Yeah some people are annoyed with the fan service but the unit itself is darn good. AoE 70% full break, healing ability which has the same power as Curaja, and AoE water imbue. Both heal and imbue can be dual-casted iirc.

    You also can pick another MS Nichol from the select summon. But you may wait since the delayed Yuraisha (buffer on-par with Nichol) will soon be released, probably.
     
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  3. Culpra

    Culpra Well-Known Member

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    Well I do already have 1 loren, although i don’t have enough UoC tickets to get another. Thanks for the input
     
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  4. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    If you already have 1x Loren, I would prioritize getting a dupe for Loren first. A stronger break is very important and very very helpful for many contents.
     
  5. Culpra

    Culpra Well-Known Member

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    How would i go about getting another loren? MY current supplies are quite dry from trying to get Auron, which only left me with 2 Jecht. I only have 4 UoC tickets, and my chance of pulling loren randomly is all rng based.
     
  6. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    What I mean is the next set of UoC should be for Loren or any other strong 7* break if by that time you get a copy of them (Loren, Auron, Summer Lid/Fina, HT.Lid, King Edgar, etc. I would also put Beatrix there as well, but many people don't like her that much. If we want to include time-limited unit as well, then 2B and Kryla are also great.)
     
  7. Regalia

    Regalia Member Supporter

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    I'm assuming most of those units are 7*, since you took the time to specify that MS Nichol was only 6*? Sorry for the wordiness, but as the forums are finding out, I really enjoy theorycrafting.

    Short version, in order of helpfulness:

    1)Get that MS Nichol up to 7*. A good breaker would probably do more for you, but a 7* support will do more than a 6* breaker, so go for 7* MSN. besides, you have an ok breaker right now.

    2)Basch, A. Rain and Wilhelm have you well covered for tanks. That's actually a really good setup, so don't worry too much about it. Maybe replace Basch with Seighard at some point, but it's still really, really good.

    3)Folka is a great healer focused on recovering MP, and preventing debuffs and status ailments. Eiko isn't bad, but she covers a lot of the same ground, and Folka does most of it better. Another healer might be nice, but 7* Folka is still awesome.

    4)Your Phys/Mag chainers are fine. You're heavy on the DR family for physical chainers, so you'll find lots of partners, and they come with imperils for 5 different elements. On the other side of things, TT is a wrecking ball. You'll have no problems finding partners for her in your guest list, and just about the only better chainer you'll find is Sophia from the Star Ocean events with her permanent triple cast uptime and chaos wave frames.

    5) your breaker... I really don't know what to tell you. Basch isn't bad, but he's not great either. And Machina is kind of an odd duck: his breaks start off strong but quickly fade in potency, and are only ST besides. The problem here is that the best breakers only really start to shine when they hit 7*, and you're not really in a position to do that. Having said that, if you have a 6* 2B, you might want to pick up the 7* crystal for her in the store, if possible. At 7* with her TMR, she picks up a bunch of breaks, can self imbue thunder, and imperils thunder at 100% for 5 turns. She's an awesome breaker with excellent side dps, coming in #4 and #2 on Memel0rd's top 5 list, respectively. She's time limited, but you have a golden opportunity right now. Aside from that, keep an eye out for Auron, Loren or HT Lid, then pop your next UoC on getting a second copy.

    I've been really unlucky with breakers, so I don't really have an informed opinion on how they handle, but I've put a lot of thought into the topic and I'm really happy with my shiny new 2B 7*.


    Reasoning so that others can point out flaws (feel free to skip):
    -----------------------------------------
    Defense comes before offense. Personally, when looking at UoC choices, I'd prioritize:
    Tank > Breaker or Buffer > Healer > Buffer or Breaker > DPS

    Whether Breaker or buffer comes first is kind of a toss up, but a good breaker will (mathematically) do more. Buffs/debuffs only affect base stats+pots and not equips or passives, so buffing yourself with a *rolls dice* 120% buff isn't as great as it sounds. My Basch has nearly 700 defense, but that 120% DEF buff only adds 181 DEF, cutting damage taken by ~20%. On the other hand the boss's 1500 attack is all considered "base," so even a modest 50% reduction in that will do more for you than a 120% buff to defense. It gets even worse because the formula squares ATK or MAG, so cutting ATK in half actually cuts damage by 75%. Again, most of your stats come from equipment and passives, so it's not as big of a deal to buff/debuff on your end.

    That said, buffing your stats is still useful, and a good buffer also offers other things, such as imbues, resists, and mitigations. Plus some bosses can't be broken. You've got MS nichol, and he's pretty much the gold standard for support units.

    Either way, if your tank plus breaker and/or buffer can keep incoming damage low enough, even a mediocre healer will do. If they can't, even the best healer will struggle to keep up. Your healer is there to fix what they can't prevent, so you have to focus on preventing first.

    Having said that, top healers offer some support (resists, imbues, sometimes buffs) too, and good DPS tend to have self ATK/MAG buffs, so between the two you can kinda squeak by without a buffer as long as your tank and breaker are up to snuff.

    As to DPS, so long as you can stay alive, you can (for the most part) take as long as you need to kill things. The reverse strategy doesn't work nearly as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  8. Culpra

    Culpra Well-Known Member

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    Oh ok! Makes a lot more sense, i’m planning on saving for Fid, but if I don’t happen to get her, ill save for King Edgar/a GLEX of equal power even though im not typically a GLEX fan.
    Wow, this post was very insightful and I truly appreciate you taking your time out of your day to compose it. As you said, MS Nichol is indeed my only 6* out of the above posted, and boy do I love him at 6*, just luck hasn't been on my side for getting him to 7*. My luck with banners has been a blessing but a curse.

    Kurasame and Machina Banner
    - was pulling for Kurasame(damage), got 2 Machina instead (breaker)

    Jecht and Auron Banner
    - Was pulling for Auron(breaker), got 2 Jecht instead (damage)

    So far from what i have composed from the FFBE discord server, and from surveying this forum, I have conducted a short list of units to save and pull for.

    1. Yuraisha (Support)
    2. Fid(IF we get her/them, if not then King Edgar(long time away) or a GLEX breaker of the same tier)
    3. Akstar

    And then from there just find units to periodically upgrade with. Im gonna keep folka for a while, along with eiko since i like using them for different scenarios, the only healer i can think of replacing folka with is LW Lenna, Aerith looks amazing, but i really just love LWLenna's aesthetic. For tanks, the obvious CG Charlotte and CG Wol, and then for mages, there have been an abundance of them in Jp recently, but im mos definitely saving for CG Terra.

    Anyways thanks for everyone who gave me some insight on this post!
     
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  9. Regalia

    Regalia Member Supporter

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    I feel that. Gumi's been trolling me off and on.

    UoC'd a Folka to get my first 5* healer, got a LM Fina the next day on a random pull.
    Went a full lap on the FFX banner, hoping for Auron because I needed a breaker. Instead they gave me 3 Riku, 5 Wakka, 3 Brothers, 2 Belgemine, 2 Seymore, a LuLu and a Jecht instead.
    Threw some rare tickets at the Ignacio banner, got two Ignacios out of the first three tickets. Only got my Suzume (what I was aiming for) on the final day. One copy. From the daily 1/2 off.
    Did two steps on the KH banner, got 2 KH Cloud. Decided to stop there and conserve lapis, even though I'd wanted Sora. Week 2 raid rewards a weapon that can only be used by Sora.
    Used a 10+1 ticket, got two rainbows. They turned out to both be the same unit, so I dashed over to the wiki to discover that my brand new Nameless Gunner Jake DIDN'T HAVE A 7* YET, and wouldn't for more than a month. Plus I have no gear for him, and he's a finisher, which I don't care for. USELESS.

    You're quite welcome. Like I said, I love theorycrafting. My best friend and I made up our own D&D style rpg's as kids because we couldn't afford the books, and he's gone on to get a master's degree in game design. As far as I'm concerned, this is the best part of the game.

    Yeah, we kinda have to, don't we? Still, DPS feel power crept the most, so a good tank, healer or breaker is a much better investment.
    CG Charlie looks pretty awesome, like a SPR focused Wilhelm. Totally with you on that one.
     
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  10. Culpra

    Culpra Well-Known Member

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    I felt this on a personal level, used my first UoC ticket on a 2nd Wilhelm as he was my best shot at having a 7* tank, then probably a week later at most, i pulled a 3rd wilhelm on a daily... Then used my second uoc ticket on a second Tifa seeing as how i had absolutely no 7* physical chainer, and i had 1 of her from just random pulls, then jecht comes and says "ahahah" to my decision.
     
  11. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    Just some nitpicking thoughts, I won't recommend looking into the future with JP too much. Some of these units are still very very far into the future (except Aerith who will like like 3-4 months from now), those units are 6+ months away from us. You will likely need some mid-way stepping stone first. If you team is already settled, then you can go into 100% hoard mode. If not, getting some other unit up may make your game more enjoyable for you.
     
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  12. Culpra

    Culpra Well-Known Member

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    Well of course, but either way, hoarding is currently my only option until another top tier aoe breaker becomes available with rate ups. Loren being my only 1 i currently have, but lacking a dupe is what is holding me back as i dont really have a way of pulling for her now, unless i get lucky.
     
  13. Regalia

    Regalia Member Supporter

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    Keep in mind, you do have serviceable breakers. Even a 45% AoE from Basch will still massively cut incoming damage, and that's really the most important part of the job. Against some really tough content, you'll still want the higher breaks, but if your other roles are good enough, and your gear is good, you can actually be okay through a bunch of trials. You just have to make sure that you're abusing as many other multipliers as you can - get that elemental resist AoE, the buffs and mitigation (!) from MS Nichol, reraise on your tanks from Folka, etc.

    A side note about mitigation, because the game/wiki doesn't tell you jack: It comes in three varieties, which all stack additively. Well, Phys/General and Mag/General stack, Phys/Mag don't because they do different things. As you can guess from the names, they reduce damage from specific damage types, physical, magical and both. Because of the way that buffs work (see previous post), these are usually better for your tanks than a buff is. A 40% physical mitigation (such as from Pod 153) will add a *0.6 multiplier to the end of the damage calculation, straight up reducing physical damage by 40% after all other factors. This means that it's effectiveness is unaffected by the unit's DEF stat, passives or buffs. If you slap a 20% general mitigation on top, you get a (40+20)=60% reduction. This is why MS Nichol is generally considered THE best buffer, because he can supply lots of strong buffs, some strong resists, and lots of on demand mitigation.
     
  14. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    No. 45% break is not really that serviceable anymore. They are probably fine for old contents and easy/intermediate, but for more recent contents, like the last few 10-man trials, 12*+ trials, etc, 60% would be what I call serviceable. 50% or lower may do the job, if you have strong tanks and buffers to help with that.

    Basch's break is not anywhere near serviceable since you cannot use it on the first turn. In most intermediate/hard contents, getting tanking status (cover, provoke) up on the first turn is pretty much mandatory. Basch will not be able to use his break. If you use Basch as your main tank, you should bring another breaker. Basch will mostly serve as a back-up breaker. (and since you are taking another breaker, there is no reason to stick with 45% break, when there are better options, including Machina since the OP has him).

    Also, no. It doesn't stack that way. Stacking 20% (untype) dmg mitigation on top of 40% phy dmg mitigation will make the total mitigation becomes 52% (you take 80% dmg from untype and 60% from phy, then the total is 0.8*0.6 or 48%, that is 52% mitigation).

    MS.Nichol is considered the best buffer because his LB can give 150% all stats buff and 20% HP/MP heal, along with a lot of other stuffs in his skill sets which can be dualcast, including solid MP regen and heal, 70% Ice/Water/Light/Dark resistance, fill LB gauge, fill esper gauge. This makes him a very flexible buffer. In fact, when it comes to dmg mitigation, it is his weak point since he can provide at most 40% on his 7-turn CD and 30% on-demand. This is quite lower in comparison to Zarg or Seaside Nichol who can give up to 50%+ by themselves.
     
  15. Regalia

    Regalia Member Supporter

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    Well, the "serviceable was more about Machina's 70% st. I know it weakens over time, but it's a lot better than nothing. I should have been more clear on that point.

    As to mitigation being multiplicative and not additive, oops, my bad.

    As to Seaside Nick and Zerburger, hell if I know. There are still a lot of units I'm not familiar with. I'm good at the math, but there are so damn many units...

    Sorry!
     
  16. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    No worry, it happens. Anyway, when you read about stuffs. Keep in mind that FFBE is one of those moving-meta type of games. A lot of things change over time. I don't know which article you read exactly, but I recommend you check the last update of the article as well. The breaker vs buffer argument may be all the way back when we have only 50% break as top-tier break and 120% buff as top-tier. Now that we have leaped on the breaker side (from WoL's, Ling's, etc 45% to Loren's, Auron's, etc. 74%), but hardly moves on the buffer side (from Soleil's 120% to MS.Nichol's 150%), the comparison is not that straightforward anymore.
     
  17. Regalia

    Regalia Member Supporter

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    True enough, but some of the basic considerations stay the same, because the formulas stay the same even if the variables change.

    1)Offense gets squared but Defense doesn't, so changing Offense has a bigger effect. All else being equal, +100 ATK increases damage more than +100 DEF decreases it. It's more effective to buff/break offensive stats than the opposite.
    2)Buffs/breaks only touch your base stats. Most of the enemies' stats are base. Most of yours are not. It is therefore more important, all else being equal, to break the enemy or remove enemy buffs rather than to buff yourself or remove your own debuffs.
    3)That said, some enemies can't be broken, so buffing the opposite stat is still important.
    3b)Some enemies are so tough that you want to do both. And throw up mitigation. And resists. And have your tank defend.

    Is there anything wrong with my basic assumptions?
     
  18. aa25

    aa25 VIP VIP

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    This is a tricky question. 'Basic' is a very vague word. Even so, some changes can drastically change the entire thing. For example, the boss' 'self-buff', 'non-dispelable buff', passive, or whatever you want to call it, significantly re-ture the entire breaker meta. Or sometimes, just because a unit or an equipment that got released and broke the previous meta (e.g. auto-provoke, or bosses who can debuff your ailment resistance). Personally, I won't rely too much on articles older than 3 months. Sometimes, the best way is just asking around here.

    It depends. If you are in the situation where increase/decrease can be equally easily done, then yes. But, in most case, you may end up in a situation that increase 100 ATK is more difficult than dropping 100 DEF, like you cannot squeeze in another unit, don't have enough room in the rotation to do it, etc. Then, you probably have to go with what you get.

    On top of that, keep in mind that ATK/MAG/DEF/SPR are not the only things that decide the dmg. There are also elemental resistance/weakness, killer effect, weapon variance, etc. There are many cases when dropping your ATK in favor of killer parameter or getting to benefit from imperil is the better option. Likewise, dropping DEF/SPR for HP, LB build, etc, may be a better option.

    Not necessary. It depends on what unit you are talking about. For non-tank units, their based stats could be more than 50% of their total stats. Even for typical 7* stats, unless you specially build them for DEF/SPR, they will probably have around 350-400 DEF/SPR with around 200-220 from base-stats. For those units, removing debuff can be equally important as breaking the boss. On top of that, the range of debuff strength that the enemies have are not necessary the same as our units'. There are bosses who can break for 100%, so they can effective reduce your unit's DEF/SPR by over a half. Similarly, there are bosses who buff themselves for 10%. In those case, leaving it alone may be a better option.

    Yes. Although, I don't know if it is just me, but I always feel like if the boss is not immune to break, having a break up on it is a default/mandatory. So, whether or not boss is immune to break, I will buff my team regardless. Exceptions are old bosses that the strength of the break is far stronger than when they were first released.
     
  19. Regalia

    Regalia Member Supporter

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    Sorry for taking over the thread. I've moved the conversation.

    TL;DR:

    I don't disagree with aa25, he was just looking at more variables than I was.

    Long story short, you need a better breaker, and I don't know enough about the units to make recommendations.
     
  20. Thiago Amorim Neves Reis

    Thiago Amorim Neves Reis Well-Known Member

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    Well i tend to think that putting machina and a breaker tank would be enough for you despite little troublesome. Memelord made a post explaining why a break of 60% for atk/mag is enough, and sincerely ive been using Loren but many trials i did With 50/45% break and Good equips. A Good option would be Fid and sua is an improvement of other breaker because of imbues and Blatter defensivecapability, but in mind maybe what comes is a glex version of her (im one of those who think SSN is glex version of yuraisha)
     

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